Verma on Khalidi

Biru:

The exceptions in the Indian Constitution for Hindus and Muslims are out of respect for our time honored traditions and not for any exploitative purpose as with your GOP here.

I have intentionally kept a very low profile during these exchanges not just because for me it is an unknown territory - no experience or any special knowledge. Personally, grew up where there really were really no distinctions. In college, I had a privileged life - loved and hated equally by both Muslims and Hindus.

I am enjoying and learning a tremendous amount from your writings and the responses, specially Qamar's. Keep up the good work.

Shamim

- Hide quoted text -

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Biru <; wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sh <;
Date: Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: More..... Comments..... REVIEW:.... Verma on Khalidi _Khaki and the Ethnic Violence in India
To: Biru <


My understanding is that India has probably the higheset level of preferential treatment for all minorities including Muslims. Many of the minority communities have benefitted tremendously under that program. It is questionable if the Muslim community in general has taken advantage of it. From what little I know they have not. Although compared to conditions in Pakistan and many other predominantly Muslim countries, maybe the ordinary Muslim is doing better in India.

If you compare the treatment of minorities in Pakistan, or most other Muslim countries the less said the better.

Not only is there preferential treatment, but as a secular democracy India has a real conflict in that the Constitution makes explicit exceptions for specific religious issues which include both Muslims and Hindus. To me, that makes absolutely no sense. By definition a secular democracy needs to keep church and state separate. (The right wing of the Republican Party in the US has probably forgotten that) On that score, Muslim countries are logically consistent. They do not claim to be democracies or secular. The current struggle in Egypt and other countries in the middle east is fascinating from that viewpoint.

Historically, I have been intrigued by the fact that the Muslim invasion had both barbaric and civilized aspects. Both Babar and Akbar would be considered enlightened rulers. Difficult to say the same about Mohammad of Gazni or Aurangzeb and many others.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Biru &lt> wrote:

Usama and Qamar:

At the outset I agree with Qamar that we seem to have drifted away from the theme of the original article. We are doing a version of Coffee Shop discussion, only thing missing is cigarette smoke. We are focusing on looking back wards. That may help us under stand how we got where we are, but certainly not chart a new course at this important juncture of our country.

So, lets start again. Yes, there are real and perceived lack of opportunities not only for Muslims, but also lower casts, Dalits and Christians. Unfortunately that is the Legacy System we inherited with all its inherent bugs.

Gandhi gave us a new foundation of pluralism (his ideal was Jesus and was a avatar of His). That was only three score years ago. He lived and died for his belief of secularism and that Truth will prevail. We as a country are a work in progress and have an arduous path ahead of us in reinforcing his ideals of self less service, transparency and honesty in public life. But, we have certainly held up his belief of 'love conquers all'. There have been incidents in our short life that may put a lie to this and prevent the healing of deep old wounds. Looking at our erstwhile co-habitants, we can take solace in our achievements at the cost of complacency. We should not be glib in seeing the non-achievement of the founding principle of their state. They have descended from the Land Of The Pure to a state that discriminates against Muhajirs, Bhoras, Khojas, Baluchis and every other minority. Most of the Hindus have been ostracized.

I whole heartedly agree with Usama that Wahabism is not an ideal model to look at. It was promoted as a convenience for the House of Saud to keep the religious men happy while pocketing all the oil money. You can not go to Saud with a copy of Gita or Bible. Why should we be looking at them for inspiration when we have our own Ulema of Deobandi and Barelvi. They offer a very strict interpretation of true Islam while promoting peace with other religions. Indonesia may be a better model. The most revered Maulvi there is an Indian Ahmadi. They too have rejected Wahabism or Salafism.

We have to live up to the ideals of Gandhi and prove that religious contention has no place in a civil society. As to the lack of equal economic opportunities for each of us, the governance has to provide a level playing field. Then it should be up to each of us to get the most "roti-kapra-makan' for us and our family. We should not look to the politicians for entitlements, sops or quotas for they will use and abuse the voting block for their own glory. This is where the dream has been shattered.

Each one of us has to pull one self up from ones boot straps and not look at others to do it for us.

The Idea -Of- India is in Beta Test. Lets remove all the bugs and modify the code as needed. I am very optimistic we will succeed in showing the closed societies a road away from doctrinaire philosophy.

Biru

p.s. Usama....send me the link. Also, I am not a big fan of leftist historians. Try L. P. Sharma. Of course, a Sharma has to be good!!

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Usama <> wrote:

Qamar and Biru:

The debate about Muslim invasions has long been settled, as far as I know. The more current historians, such as Sunil Khilnani, Romilla Thapar and Ramchandra Guha have accepted that religion had very little to do with the depredations of the medieval times. Many of Shivaji's soldiers and generals were Muslim, as were those employed in the Vijayanagar empire. Interestingly, gold coins dating from ancient Muslim kingdoms have been found in some Hindu temples in Pakistani provinces, recently. Richard Eaton is another historian who has established the absence of religious zeal in the wars fought for material gain.

As regards the alleged oneness of Islam, it exists only in theory and in the minds of mullahs and Sunni scholars with political agendas. Typically, these folks willfully ignore the actual, lived experience of Muslim societies throughout the centuries and everywhere in the world. The diversity of Islamic religious expressions in every region of the world is breathtaking. Even the Islamic dogma and doctrine are from being free of controversy. The Prophet did not name anybody his successor. The holiness of the four khalifas is a totally contrived and political construct, deemed necessary to standardize Islamic practice in a political struggle for power that began in the wake of the Prophet's death.

Saudis being tolerant? You got to be joking. No church or mandir allowed to be built on their land? Migrant workers treated as miskeen, or rafique or worse.

Some biased Western historians trace the origins of Sufism to the wool clothing some holy men used, but that's a very limited definition of the whole phenomenon. Sufism represents a mystical dimension of Islam, as interpreted and propounded by Ibn-e Arabi in the 12th century, and represented by the poetry of Maulana Rumi, Fariduddin Attar (Conference of the Birds), and later practised by Chishti holy men: Nizamuddin and Moinuddin etc.

If the Saudis can have their version of Islam, as do the Iranians, the Sudanese, the Moroccans and the Turks, why can't Indians have a version of their own?

Biru sahib, you are a reader of the Economist, since you sent me some thoughtful articles about Indian economy, that's evidence enough that you are on equal footing with us. Since Qamar spent a lifetime in journalism, and I spent a few years in it, we have some skill with words, that's all. I enjoy a civil discourse, which goes on some mailing lists, one of which, my favorite, is SASIALIT, i.e., sough Asia literature. I'll send you subscription information, if you like.

Usama


To regard

2011/4/23 Syed

Biru and Usama.

Biru sahib laments on finding equal footing with us. I am not finding any footing at all to take part in the debate and take it
further.
However,in my humble opinion there can be several narratives to the issue. Let me clarify some. That the barbarians Indian history refers were actually Turkomans.
The most maligned was Mohammed bin Ghori, who is reported to have ransacked and demolished several temples in the North-Western India.
But Biru says, his top three general were all Hindu's Soband Rai, Tilak and Nath. And when one of them, if i am not wrong, Nath's death had a devastating
affect on Ghori. Besides several narratives say that what he did in the east, he almost did the same in his western campaigns. He was even planning
to raid Baghdad, the seat of the caliph.
The idea of Pakistan is wrongly attributed to Iqbal by later day Pakistani media and intellectuals as Jinnah is credited with creation of Pakistan. Pakistan
was carved out for the landed aristocracy of Sindh and the Punjab for the their survival. Chaudry Khaleeq, the Mazari's, Bhutto's and the likes of him were smart enough
to know that in free Indian they will lose their lands.
Usma, I do not contribute to the idea of several Islams. There is only one Islam. Yes there many Muslim societies. Each trying to be closer to the
template of the Prophet(PBUH).
I think you should visit the Gulf and the cradle of so called wahabism, Saudi Arabia to see for yourself. The Arabs by far and large are more tolerant
of other faiths, that Muslims Of the sub-continent.
You will find several Hindu and Christians occupying very senior and gainful positions in the private and public sector.
Whabism, to borrow from you is more a creation of the US media after September 11. It is more akin to Martin Luther's campaign to rid the
clergy of its trappings.
Historically speaking the Sufi, originated from the term Soof, which in Arabic means wool. The first Caliph of Islam, Abu Bakr (RAZ) was
an embodiment of simplicity and humbleness. He clothes were of thick Soof and that's how a Sufi has come into being. It started
not from India, but from Al Sham( Syria) and traveled to iIndia. All the Sufi saints trace their Sheikhs to the Al Sham.
Even the Hinduism as a religion was abstract in its very early form. It acquired Iconism and idol worship and at a later stage.
Regards

Qamar

---

Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:03:14 -0400
Subject: Comments..... REVIEW:.... Verma on Khalidi _Khaki and the Ethnic Violence in India

From

Usama and Qamar:

The depth of intellect, evident from your learned comments, makes me hesitant to converse with you on an equal footing. I will still try.

At the outset let me reiterate that for the idea of a Secular India to bloom, it has to include all its colors.

To associate Indian Muslims with the Barbarians who looted and eviscerated the land of Indus Valley is misguided. The marauders were in the name only Muslims, their true religion was monetary conquest. The Turkic group that started coming, mostly from Uzbekistan, to Indus started the process of settling down. It was only the Mughals who established a Base Camp, though Babar still wanted his permanent rest in his old country.

Most of the soldiers and Generals in the Mughal employ were Hindus. Who was the General who defeated Shivaji? There was amity and comity between the two groups even during the harsher periods of forced change. As Usama has said, the idea of a nation did not exist. It was local kingdoms who aligned themselves based on selfish interests and not religion.

I will like to point that the zeitgeist even then was Secular. Let me digress, the local religion in millennial before the marauders came over the Hindu Kush was Shavia, Vaishnav, Buddhist, Jain and Shraman. Yes, they were considered distinctly separate religions! They all lived and let live. The schism with Buddhism came much later when the "Hindu" groups had merged to re-create the Vedic Brahmanism. Thus, we can see that the prevalent religious/social philosophy was inclusionary. All groups and thoughts were accepted and developed.

It is in this light that the Indian Islamic thought is very different than the Land where it came from. The Sufi tradition, originally Turkic, took roots in the Indus. It greatly influenced the Hindu worship and started the Bhakti movement. That is the beauty of our civilization, the congruence of many varied thoughts melding into each others domain. It is evident in the lack of animosity between Sunnis and Shias in India.

Now after the long diatribe, lets get back to Hindu (though I call myself Sanatan Dharmi) Vs. Muslim dialog. The roots go way back to the British Raj. Wow, what a great place to dump all your shortcomings! They did divide and rule. If they wasn't bad enough, some ill guided people like Iqbal, whose mother was Hindu, established the premise that Muslim can not live with Hindus and must have a Land Of The Pure. Of course, we know that idea has completely failed. It started as a Secular state, Jinnah and Nehru were of the same ilk. It became the first Islamic nation. And failed, it greatly has. Religion is good only for the soul. You need engineering for the stomach.

It is Pakistan that created the conundrum in the minds of Indus Mussalman. And a very perplexing one. Where does ones loyalty lie? Not many voted with their feet. 200 million are here, and if I may say so, much better of.

So, my friends, we have to prove that the land that has nourished many different cultures will mature into a giving and caring family of equals.

Biru

p.s. This e-mail is circulated to about 50 people.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Usama <> wrote:

Qamar:

I disagree both with your diagnosis and prescriptions about the Indian Muslims. Your basic assumptions are those of the Urdu speakers (about 55 percent of the Indian population) who believe that Muslims are a "community" by themselves, and that they ruled India for centuries. You got to remember: Indian civilization may be 5,000 years old, but the idea of India as a political / geographical entity is less than 150 years old. The Mughal empire was an Indian phenomenon, jointly run with non-Muslims who were split among themselves in terms of castes and classes and who definitely were not a monolithic Hindu population (see Kanchan Iliah). There was very little Islamic about the Mughal empire or about the other princely states where the elites were mostly Muslim. (Kashmir had the reverse situation.)

The minority problem as I see it, based on my 3 years in India during 2004-2007, is that the identity insecurity that has gripped Muslims for decades, has been exacerbated by the majority people's search for their own "true" identity. In other words, the majority Indians' brief flirtation with Hindutva resulted in further throwing the Muslims back on into their hard shell. Thank god, the larger society has repudiated the monstrous Hindutva ideology; but the Muslims are still not reassured. The Gulf experience has made many Muslims abandon the Islam that evolved in the Indian context over the centuries in the shadow of the Vedic civilization. That Indian version of Islam was totally tolerant, like the Vedic civilization, and accepting of many different expressions of piety (Nizamuddin Awliya, Ajmer etc).This Wahhabism embraced by many Muslims is a foreign import; it does not suit our temperament. It is ahistorical. It may be alright for the Bedouins and the Gulfies, but it is totally destructive of our own traditions. It also hurts us politically. The siege mentality, of course, is a worldwide phenomenon, made worse by the costly American imperialism, and European islamophobia.

The only way for Muslims to grow out of their medieval mindset is to embrace modernity: 1) a man-centered universe in which Allah does not micromanage the world; 2) secularism as understood in the Indian context, i.e., equal respect for all religions, and not necessarily a separation of religion and state, 3) equality of men and women; 4) individual rights; 5) freedom of thought etc. etc.

Usama.

2011/4/19 Syed  <

Biru Sahib.

Yes, personal examples are necessary to eliminate untruths based on personal examples.
You see the problem with the INDIAN MUSALMAN is, he is victim of circumstances. The INDIAN MUSALMAN
has to accept the fact that he was always a minority. It was a quirk of history, that HE came to be the ruler.
Then a terrible tragedy happened to the INDIAN MUSALMAN. The 1947 partition of the country. Sadly HINDUSTAN was
dismembered into West and East Pakistan. The worse that happened was this division was based on a flawed
TWO- NATION theory. Those who choose not to go to this promised land of honey and milk today are 200 million strong
and are still bewildered about their status in India.When we begin to realize, (the
common Musalman)that we are an integral part of India and as a community,
with a rich cultural and social heritage,( never mind the venomous and vindictive HINDUTVA forces, that are now dwindling) that made India
what it is today,a great tolerant and pluralistic nation, with as many as vibrant religions
and cultures the universe has.
Unfortunately our leadership operates on ignorance and treacherousness . And our Media, only plays over and over the glorious
past wants us to bask in the glow of nostalgia. Our malady is that we cannot or rather do not want to get rid of the past baggage.
But i am sure give the new generation of MUSALMANS another decade or two, you will see a people matching step to step
with what you have named as progressive lot..

Qamar

---

Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:48:31 -0400
Subject: Re: REVIEW:.... Verma on Khalidi _Khaki and the Ethnic Violence in India

From:

Qamar:

As always, you have great ideas.

Qamar, I always hear people giving personal examples to prove a universal truth. Like you, I also know a lot of very successful Muslims, you being one of them. My father had a very good friend, Gen. Habibulah. And another General from Hyderabad (senior moment with name) who later settled in Pune, buying a hotel. My good friend Hasan was related to him. My fathers boss was Mr. S. A. Qadir from Andhra, in the GOI. In Baghdad, while serving in UN, his best friend was Mr, Quadri, also from Hyderabad. Shamim knew him. So, we agree, there are very smart Muslims. My very good friend, Habib Ansari, came within a hair breath of becoming a Supreme Court justice.

Having said that, is there a dispute that statistically, Muslims are not on par with the nation in educational achievement. If not, then that gap has to be minimized to preclude a permanent under class. We do not wish to be a society of haves and have-nots.

The most important move will be to avoid ghettoisation. The feeling of minority insecurity has to be banished from the mind if one has to main line.

Best....Biru

2011/4/17 Syed

Hi.
Biru Sahib, when did you last visit Hyderabad. I go regularly to Hyderabad and don't waste time sipping coffee in Nizam Club /Secunderabad Club. I mingle with people,
people from all walks of life, from an auto-rickshaw driver to a CEO. I found that Dalits and Muslims have made considerable progress in education and technology.
There are over 10,000 IT trained people gainfully employed in Cyberabad in the several of IT companies.
You see what you have commented is now old hat. Things have changed.
last visit i was invited to a Bimillah ceremony arranged by a retired major at the military Club. Believe me i met half a dozen senior military officer from majorl,,brigadier and even
general.All Muslims.
There are over half a dozen senior police officer currently in Hyd. The present Commissioner if Muslim.
The recently retired DIG is also a Muslim,

---

Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:32:11 -0400

Subject: REVIEW:.... Verma on Khalidi _Khaki and the Ethnic Violence in India

From:
To:

Very interesting comments and review. I will add my two bits worth. I would not doubt that there may be overt caution against hiring Muslims in the security forces. Justified or not, Indira Gandhi insisted on keeping her Sikh Guards!!

It should be noted that Muslim community, as a whole, lags in educational achievements, as compared to the national level. This issue was addressed a long time ago by Sir Syed when he formed Aligarh Muslim University. But the lag continues and that can partially explain the low representation in all Government jobs. Just take the example of Hyderabad with an ancient and vibrant Muslim community. How many Muslim programmers do you find?

The community as a whole has to emphasize the pre-requisite of modern education to eliminate the economic chasm. If not, the group will fall farther behind every year.......Biru